Nukes and You

  • Alright so we just had a nuclear strike by some rogue generals in Davishire (IC Secret its the generals, really no one knows), however after some discussion with our War Systeam Head, there is no way that the nukes would have been made successfully secretly. There is no RL equalivant to such thing, however, we are not RL so there are some merits to the idea of the nukes being produced secretly and there is a history in RP canon of nations trying to make them secretly I.E Inimicus, however they ended up just applying to the ENAA and getting theiir nukes.

    I will leave it to the Duxburian Union to sort out his well list of grievances (Go USA Go USA), however to some there is a consensus that this happened too quickly, with little RP of the development. While granted historically there has not been ever much nuclear development in regards to nations who got the ENAA's approval, for nations who have not they have typically RPed the process more than this one currently has, read Mongolia. Others ended up a hell hole I.E Dromund Kaas. There is also the fact of secrery and the level thereof which should be discussed. So before we go blow up the world I think it is fair to say a regional discussion would be appreciated by many in the region.

    This topic is open to all who wish to make a statement on the matter.

  • le sigh

  • Is there any possibility that they nukes could have just been imported/stolen? Making a nuke is next to impossible, but stealing it is moderately easier if they're already produced by a nation.

    I mean, it's a terrorist dream to go buying nukes from some poor-but-equipped USSR satellite, so what's to say that some failed state in the EU's imaginary history couldn't have let some slide into the wrong hands, especially with high-ranking brass managing it (ostensibly with supporters internally)?

    But I'm probably the newest player to the EU, so the Region's canon history is largely a mystery to me.

    In the worst case scenario, you could have a freaking awesome Ace Combat scenario go on.

  • Our regional canon history is /complex/ to say the least (Even as the Regional Forum Stalker there is always new stuff to discover); there is no known failed state that is still recognized in RP to contain Nukes. There is the chance someone sold said nukes to these Davishirian Generals, however on Skype Davishire said that there was a secret team producing them in secret, in Davishire. As well as the fact the Secret Agenda RP, implies that they are made, not bought/stolen.

    However, the fact still comes in. None of this was RPed, which needs to be addressed. Also the worst case scernario is the Duxburian Union nuking half of Europe to get rid of whoever had the bomb. Just FYI.

  • Admin

    Ok, so putting aside playing a nation, and speaking only from a war system perspective:

    Big, serious things don't just happen over time and can be assumed, they need to be role played. Development of a nuclear program is quite an endeavour that takes a lot of research and physical resources. It leaves obvious need to enrich your radioactive material to weapons-grade. You need to develop a program to deliver the missiles (missiles themselves are only a body, they need a brain), and actually test them somehow before live deployment. No new missile program would risk using one without extensive testing (what if something were to go horribly wrong? You could end up blowing yourself up). Nuclear programs have very conservative mindsets, everything needs to be thought out and working before it goes on-line.

    Davishire has the raw materials by virtue of mineral deposit. It has the capability to enrich them to at least energy grade for its nuclear power plants. However, as it has been rejected by the ENAA, and the Liberal Party had a run-in with the Duxburian Union over the possibility of ignoring the ENAA, it would have been watched very closely. Satellites and spies do not need to blanket a country, only the supplies and means. Davishire could have attempted to smuggle material out of the mines using underground infrastructure and transportation, but it hasn't RPed such networks the way, say, the Dairghazbury underground functions. That would take decades to dig, anyway, and be prohibitively expensive. Thus, regional monitoring only needs to follow the material and ensure that it only goes where it should be going. Since Davishire can't legally produce nukes, attempts to hide/redirect material, or enrich the material to weapons grade at a facility would raise red flags. There is also virtually nowhere such a facility could be successfully hidden, for long. Not even underground or underwater would work, due to the logistics - you might not notice the activities of the place, but you'd notice it being constructed, things coming and going, etc. This is why it's so painfully obvious when Iran or the DPRK is trying to enrich uranium. Thus, the region does not need to know that a secret nuclear program exists in order to uncover one, the way the SEC doesn't need to know that a ponzi scheme exists - they only need to follow the proverbial money.

    Those are my complaints excluding nation - the nuclear program would have been detected far before the point of having an operational missile.

    My complaints as a player, excluding war system, are that Davishire knows the risk of doing this, it was warned 3 years ago. A person would have to be batshit insane to keep at it. The DK war indicated that the nation was going to uphold its ultimatums, using whatever means necessary. One of the reasons DK quit was that he expected a Obama/US response and instead got a Dehn/DU response. He crossed a red line and got what was promised. Monogolia's nuclear program was sabotaged by cyberwarfare, but that was before the Dehn Doctrine. If that were to happen today, Monogolia would have been glassed.

    My #1 concern if we go through with this story arc is that it ends with someone getting glassed. Whoever the blame gets pinned on would be wiped out. The Dehn Doctrine exists to eliminate this exact scenario from ever conceivably happening, because no character in the game would be foolish enough to prod it. This is the equivalent of somebody deciding to test MAD and firing a first strike at a nuclear nation, for no real reason. It's obvious what would happen next.

    Further concerns involve Nathan's complete refusal to RP with me. The DU will inevitably demand that the explosion site be secured and investigated by an independent team. Davishire isn't distrusted for OOC reasons, it is a belligerent in the conflict and thus cannot possibly be seen as credible IC. The DU would enter the zone as part of the team, as it is neutral in the fight, and needs to uphold the Dehn Doctrine. If Davishire rejects their passage, we're at war. If the DU suspects that Davishire is intentionally keeping the DU out of the site, it risks getting pinned with the blame, which ends in it getting glassed. If Davishire successfully pins the blame on TS, then TS ends up getting glassed. If the source cannot be determined, the Dehn Doctrine still must be upheld. That means a systematic search of every nation that can't possess nukes. The culprit will be found eventually, and glassed, whether it was OOC really them or not. This is how the story ends. There is no happy ending. You've forced the DU into an extremely dangerous position that it can't get out of. WMDs are serious stuff.

    Somewhere, you must realize that this pledge was made with the hope that it would never need to be carried out. Nobody would be dumb enough to defy the ENAA, so it would never need to happen, just like MAD should never need to happen. It has to be carried out, else, we allow a world with Irans and North Koreas, and the nation's credibility is shot. I really don't want to do this RP, I don't want to launch. I don't want to ever need to use these weapons. It may be a game to you, but I treat this like they have a world and lives of their own.

    Nathan, I can't even war with you the way you take advantage of me and the rules of the simulation. You can't prevent every bad thing from happening to the nation you play. Not everything needs your explicit approval. All the while, you use my F-35 tech that your producer nation can't develop on its own, which is against the rules. All the while, Davishirian intelligence can see all, but nobody else can even have a single spy in Davishire. This is heading exactly the same way as DK unless you grow up and realize that you don't live in an IC bubble safe space. If you decide to attack the DU, I will defend and counter attack. If I decide to attack Davishire, you will ignore cannon it. You cannot continue to RP with these double standards. You're either going to follow the rules like everyone else, or end up like DK. This can't go on.

  • Admin

    Dux is absolutely right re: the production of a nuclear weapon. It is absurd that Davishire's government, let alone a non-state actor, would be able to produce a nuclear weapon, or get even remotely close to doing so, undetected. I'd very strongly suggest retconning this, on those grounds alone.

  • I agree with Dux as well. It's a ridiculous premise and we HAVE to stop trying to IC Secret things that clearly can't be kept secret (like entire fleets moving or bombs being made). I mean, come on folks.

  • Dux and Me have discussed this a lot, and he hit the nail on the head. Personally there are two options present, either retcon this entire RP, allowing for Davishire if he truly wishes to go forward with it to RP all the events leading into it (Providing they meet the requirements of the Admins), or we continue as is. However, with continueing, Davishire and it's generals would be found out rather quickly, and the Dehn Doctrine would be adhered to.

  • OOC: Please Note I will not be RPing the current crisis with Davishire, the TS, and this nuclear explosion until an agreement is reached on this discussion thread. I want to avoid putting energy in an RP endeavour that will only be retconned or even abandoned.


  • Admin

    @Aalen said:

    Dux and Me have discussed this a lot, and he hit the nail on the head. Personally there are two options present, either retcon this entire RP, allowing for Davishire if he truly wishes to go forward with it to RP all the events leading into it (Providing they meet the requirements of the Admins), or we continue as is. However, with continueing, Davishire and it's generals would be found out rather quickly, and the Dehn Doctrine would be adhered to.

    As would the Cameron Doctrine.

  • Admin

    Even though I love my fair share of regional conflict, and I think it would be hilarious if a few nations got themselves nuked to oblivion, I agree that this just needs to be retconned because it’s way beyond the realm of realism. Dux, Angleter and the UK pretty much covered everything, but you really can’t stress enough how impossible it is for something like this to go on in Davishire. If anyone has read the Chemical and Biological Weapons Act you’d know that there are routine inspections that go on in nations that check up on these things. Never mind Davishire, which has applied to the ENAA several times so you know that it’s technically been inspected by the EU several times extra (even through such a process isn’t RPed itself). In RL, even the most secretive states have a hard time concealing nuclear programs. There is no way that could happen in the EU. Although, for me, the most unrealistic part is the fact that Davishire’s government somehow does not know that this has gone on. How is that even possible? A lot of times the government even knows that good ‘ol Granny Susan from across the road is cooking up something suspicious in her attic, never mind that there’s an entire military faction being able to produce nuclear weapons, which is a highly intensive and complex task. That’s seriously Somali-level of government control. That’s so hilariously blind of Davishire’s government that it makes me wonder if Davishire’s government has any oversight at all. Although, this is the government that literally allowed pirates to have full-on destroyers…

    But yeah, just burn this RP and pretend it never happened.

    While we’re at it, can we PLEASE get rid of the Teutonic States? This is no Neo-Venetia, DK, or Sahara. For one, its RP storylines make no sense and they have all been horridly RP’ed. Secondly, unlike the former nations, TS is for all intents and purposes an NPC that was invaded, not a player country. This is country that was abandoned long ago and its original RP has already been played out. It’s been invaded multiple times, its civil war has been “resolved” and it has new leadership. It’s played out. I also do recall that Nick (the creator of TS) stated multiple times that it just be removed. At this point, the country has been hijacked from Nick and it’s become Davishire’s personal play toy. It's like if Angleter and the DU kept on invading and then pulling out of Neo-Venetia over and over again and then Neo-Venetia coming back and declaring that everything is okay and that he should be pulled from the map, only to be invaded once more. TS is also, map wise, completely prime real-estate. Give it a rest.

  • Admin

    Preach it, Inquista.

  • After OOC discussion it has been agreed that the Nuclear event and the events leading up to it will be retconned. Can I please have it noted that the, in my opinion rather arrogant, piece written by the Duxburian Union had little impact upon the decision that has been made.

  • Admin

    Right then. As admin, I’m going to say that, save some major revolt against what I’m about to say, this is how it’s going to go:

    The nuke stuff gets retconned. Quite simply, rogue elements in a certain country cannot procure or develop a nuclear weapon, much less actually use it, undetected. Hell, even a sovereign state itself can’t do that. I’m just not having that stand as canon in the RP. Please, everyone, be aware that IC Secret is not a magic trick. You can only make IC Secret what an RL country (or non-state actor) in 2016 could reasonably expect to remain secret. Not want – expect. Anyway, Davishire &co. are free to keep and continue whatever parts of this RP weren’t nuke-related, if they so wish – but anything nuke-related is out.

    Also, the Teutonic States is being removed from the map. It’s not, like Dromund Kaas, the subject of an unfinished single story arc. Indeed, if its civil war hasn’t ended, then the RP has certainly been abandoned. It’s just a punching bag at present, and it needs removing from the map. Davishire &co. are free to wind up whatever RPs they’ve got going on there over the next couple of weeks, although I’d very strongly suggest that anything not ultimately related to an internal RP should end now, but after that, it’s getting kicked from the map.

    Finally, some words for Davishire. I don’t think you appreciate the ill will towards you that this episode has generated from a lot of this community. It’s not just Dux. It’s pretty much everyone I’ve spoken to about it. It’s not just the fact that you took the deployment of a nuclear weapon so lightly; not just the aforementioned impossibility of all the nuke stuff; and not just the relatively undeveloped nature of the RP. (Who are these rogue elements? Where have they come from? What is their grievance? What is their goal? And so on.) It’s the fact that you’ve dredged back up every issue that other players have had with you. The obsession with acquiring nuclear weapons. The constant military interventions. Hell, even the dispute over who has the rights to David Cameron. Most people had, I think, thought those issues had been overcome, but here they come crashing back. Again. Please, please, please, take this as an opportunity to stop the military interventions and focus on reasonable internal RP. Mysterious rogue generals false-flagging a nuke attack on their own troops in a foreign country as a pretext for ????? is not reasonable. And please, please, please, don’t even entertain the possibility of anyone in Davishire ever getting their hands on nuclear weapons again. It’ll never happen.

    Also, I don’t think your attitude in this thread has won you any respect. Dux’s comments about your conduct as an RPer were all specific, constructive criticisms; and they warrant more than you dismissing them as ‘arrogant’ and then haughtily (and entirely gratuitously) announcing that his comments had no effect on your decision to ‘agree’ to retcon the nuke stuff. Please appreciate that many players wanted to keep this RP going, despite the absurd pretext, purely in order to invade Davishire, on the grounds that they believed that that was the only way you would learn from this. As far as I can tell, Dux’s (and many other players’) main problem with your RPing is that he doesn’t think you appreciate that RP actions have RP consequences (at least, bad ones for Davishire). You may disagree with that criticism, but it’s still a specific criticism that warrants a genuine response, and the two of you really should, in any case, sort it out between yourselves. In the long term, I’m not having two long-standing players refusing to RP with each other. Please appreciate that you are a valued member of this community, and people do want to work with you here. But right now, a lot of people feel they're coming up against a brick wall.

    I think that’s everything.

    PS: As ever, general note that IC =/= OOC; criticism of RPing =/= personal attack; etc.

    PPS: Another general point – not everyone in this community is on the Skype Chat, and so we’re not all on first-name terms with each other. Please try to use nation names (or abbreviations), not real names, on these forums.