[OOC] Proposal War System v.5 - Discussion

[Inquista]

Hmm, I see what you mean. What you're saying is probably the best course of action.

Part of the reason why I made the suggestion that I made is because, as you pointed out, you can still produce weapons anyway if you have a certain producer threshold. Due to that fact alone, the actual difference between what it means to have a producer spot and what it means not to have a producer spot still seems mostly semantic as long as you have an actual arms manufacturing sector. Even without a producer spot, I could also sell weapons too. I guess the only real benefit, as you say, is that you get to copy/paste RL versions of things wholesale and other people can't copy exact replicas of your weapons, vehicles, etc. Yet, still, I could loosely base things off real life and then also loosely base my things off weapons made by actual producer nations.

It's definitely very much limited to the aesthetic side of things as you explained. I guess that's fine, but that's also why I suggested a more simplified and streamlined system. But I getchu fam.

Tbh I deffo trust you more on this since you have actual experience in this type of field while my only knowledge on the matter stems from getting triple collaterals while pwning noobs.

I'll get around to the spreadsheet soon, I promise. Also, please try to contain the fear you might have of the Juan-Bernardo Fernández-Velásquez class aircraft carrier which is set to be produced starting later in 2020.

[Vayinaod]

First off, I know for a fact the Duxburian Union is already scared of that WMD.

Secondly, yeah that's kinda the crap thing about the producer system it's pretty aethestic but has functional ramifications...I guess that makes the most /roleplay/ orientated part of the war system. I'm open to other ideas and, I do not think this is the best system but I think it would be a good starting point. I might advocate changing the requirements for producer capabilities to account for potentially anyone being able to producer weapons. I don't think we should be scared to try things out and change it if it ain't working. #WarSystemUpdate2030

As with the sheets no rush and that is for everyone. My personal goal is hopefully to get some sort of long term discussion on the war system. I know some people feel we should not even be talking about it because of forum issues. But I feel as a community we can multitask, especially when the ability to fix the forums is the power of a small group of people.

Here are some example war sheets, and I would be more than willing to help anyone out design a military to fit their needs since my proposals make designing a military slightly more strategic.

EXAMPLES:
Vayinaod
Icholasen (Ew)

[Vayinaod]

How would people feel about increasing producer requirements for the Delta tier to 7,500 and the Charlie tier to 12,500? This is to support the concept of everyone being capable of producing units if they meet certain requirements.

I'm also looking into creating application forms for custom units and stuff for space. I do not think every nation is for example capable of setting up an ISS style project on its own, but I do not think putting in a whole new system for just space is necessary at this time. The Custom Units stuff is mainly for projects that haven't yet been done on a production scale in real life; since Drone Carriers or Airborne Carriers, but are practically feasibly/plausible.

Just some continuing ideas of mine I wanted to jot down before forgetting.

[Vayinaod]

Some specific notes I want to put out real quick that I've noticed at least for myself for the war sheets and notes people have personally sent to me thus far:

Air Maintenance Units: Their manpower looks to be a little too low at 2500; with the limited pool of sheets to play around with I think 3250 might be a good place. Another way in addition and I think to help simplify the system as well is to make the base total for AMUs is to support every 20 aircraft instead of every 23.

Shore Support units for the navy have similar issue as above, though increasing these to 1750 may be all that's necessary if needed.

Ground Forces: Overall I've noticed ground forces continue to dominate in overall size more so than I'm comfortable with personally, making Mechanized and Motorized Infantry 4000 manpower alleviates it pretty good, though I'm not too sure yet if that is a necessary change.

Right now to verify the changes I'm looking at right now data from the following would be appreciated.
These represent major powers that I need to balance one end of the spectrum right now;

• Inquista
• Duxburian Union
• Angleter

Followed by more small/medium sized countries such as:

• Spain
• Reitzmag
• Ireland
• Malborya

I should stress this is not a homework assignment, and its only a request if you happen to have some free time or something. I've already found technical issues with the war sheet I posted that are now fixed thanks to the people who have submitted sheets to thank you to those so far who participated.

Final note is that I am still working on a more cohesive presentation on the producer system, but for the most part the thoughts previously outlined in the thread with my conversation with Inquista is where it is definitely headed. But again this entire thing is just a suggestion to the community, and if not comes from it but conversation that is still more than okay with me!

[Kingdom of Reitzmag]

I agree to the idea of having requirements for custom space vehicles, this would support the European Space Exploration Act of 2020. Though, I have some issues when I tested the proposed automatic war sheet. My IC became much limited unlike the previous ones.
I suggest that the war system be updated for more opportunities in establishing a strong national force that would be able to protect a nation from foreign invasion. Also, addition of new producer slots with names of RL countries could have issues. For example, I have already claimed RL companies from Japan and Brazil, and making these RL nations as producer slots will strip me off of my control over my claims that I declared even before these updates could exist. The only way that no conflict between my claims (maybe other countries would also have) and the proposed war system v.5 is to either not make producer slots of these names or give me control over the producer slots I claimed already (which I believe no one is in favor of).

[The United Kingdom]

@Reitzmag said in [OOC] Proposal War System v.5 - Discussion:

I agree to the idea of having requirements for custom space vehicles, this would support the European Space Exploration Act of 2020. Though, I have some issues when I tested the proposed automatic war sheet. My IC became much limited unlike the previous ones.
I suggest that the war system be updated for more opportunities in establishing a strong national force that would be able to protect a nation from foreign invasion. Also, addition of new producer slots with names of RL countries could have issues. For example, I have already claimed RL companies from Japan and Brazil, and making these RL nations as producer slots will strip me off of my control over my claims that I declared even before these updates could exist. The only way that no conflict between my claims (maybe other countries would also have) and the proposed war system v.5 is to either not make producer slots of these names or give me control over the producer slots I claimed already (which I believe no one is in favor of).

The thing is, this entire RP is based on rules. You can't just claim things because you want it. Your complaint about not being able to claim things is moot. I have personally said several times you can have a force but they just can't make specifically the products of the producer nations.

You claiming things doesn't matter if it's not officially made through the systems we have. Your false choice between either just giving you producer slots or having no producer slots is something I strongly disagree with. There is a third option, which is you just follow the rules as they are written like how you are supposed to accept our rules when you begin role playing with us.

[Kingdom of Reitzmag]

@Ireland Addition of Japan/Korea and Brazil as producer slots would really conflict against my initial declaration. The claim was publicized in a news article last March 3 2020 GMT+8. I understand the rules but this significant portion of this war system update proposal would definitely be against something that already existed before this would be applied.

[The United Kingdom]

@Reitzmag said in [OOC] Proposal War System v.5 - Discussion:

@Ireland Addition of Japan/Korea and Brazil as producer slots would really conflict against my initial declaration. The claim was publicized in a news article last March 3 2020 GMT+8. I understand the rules but this significant portion of this war system update proposal would definitely be against something that already existed before this would be applied.

You have to understand that these rules are in place for EVERYONE involved. Take the Duxburian Union or Angleter...if they behaved the way you are, there would be nothing stopping them from turning the sky black with the amount of airplanes they could amass or the amount of nukes they could stockpile and use against a nation like mine or yours.

You have to be willing to compromise what your vision for your nation is and the realities that is a RP where there are rules of the road that everyone must follow.

[Kingdom of Reitzmag]

@Ireland it's only these parts of the proposed war systems v.5 update would have issues against me. I have agreed to some other parts nonetheless.

[Kingdom of Reitzmag]

@Ireland By the way, thanks for helping me out so far on these RP things. I'd like to learn more if you please...

[Vayinaod]

@Reitzmag said in [OOC] Proposal War System v.5 - Discussion:

My IC became much limited unlike the previous ones.

Covering this point, the entire war system equation was redone to avoid constant re-balances with pop growth changes. I'm more inclined to believe and support the notion that /typically/ a nation's military might and quality is based on its economy's size and quality rather than the size of its population. Obviously extreme examples exist with countries like North Korea, but those are outside the norm and should be disregarded for the sack of balance.

Without this context it looks like your IC's get unfairly hit but really everyone is going to take what /looks/ to be a massive hit but the changes to pricing and upkeep help to reflect this. Please send me your sheet so I can take a proper look to see if its fair or not that's the whole point of me gathering data. I need proof that its too low.

@Reitzmag said in [OOC] Proposal War System v.5 - Discussion:

I suggest that the war system be updated for more opportunities in establishing a strong national force that would be able to protect a nation from foreign invasion.

What exactly would that entail? Not every nation has a strong national force, nor should they. They should have a military reflective of their true size. Growing your economy and defense spending through NS can result in a bigger military. I should note that what you're asking for just cause an endless circles of updates since if I work out a way to let armed forces be bigger than impacts everyone. Not just small nations. So even if you grow 5%, the Duxburian Union is likely to grow by 15% by the virtue of his stats. As Ireland mentioned, some air forces can already literally BLOT OUT THE SUN, and have bigger air forces than the entire world already possesses in real life.

Really foreign invasion is such a terrible reason to redesign the war system to what is specifically meant to not do. If you get invaded for a wrong reason or illegally people will help you, now if you brought it on yourself its more open to what's it called. Interesting RP. If you can provide specific ideas or improvements I would be glad to hear them out but I make no promises on my or others support for them.

@Reitzmag said in [OOC] Proposal War System v.5 - Discussion:

Also, addition of new producer slots with names of RL countries could have issues. For example, I have already claimed RL companies from Japan and Brazil, and making these RL nations as producer slots will strip me off of my control over my claims that I declared even before these updates could exist. The only way that no conflict between my claims (maybe other countries would also have) and the proposed war system v.5 is to either not make producer slots of these names or give me control over the producer slots I claimed already (which I believe no one is in favor of).

I noticed this the other day and this is my personal stance:

Claims in the war system are never permanent due to a revolving door of joining and leaving EU members. The current system even says if you are not able to support being a producer nation you will lose your slot. That said, I believe there is not some binary solution. My belief is that even though you are well below my proposed standards, you can be grandfathered in as the Brazil producer and receive the same one year grace period as the others. If that occurs you will not receive the Japan/SK companies. My other option is that you do not receive the Brazil producer slot, but you retain a certain level of guarantee from whoever does take those producer slots to receive some level of support and production of their products. Either one of these I believe is fair to you, future producers taking those slots. I honestly prefer the former for yourself, but the latter as a person making the system so that can be used to cover other people.

I want to make it clear I will not support trapping a producer nation into nothing. Their companies/products are theirs and that should be final.

That is only my personal stance, the admin team and the current war system Admin might have a different solution from mine they wish to propose and I leave that to them but that is how I envision fixing the issue.

[Kingdom of Reitzmag]

@Vayinaod Please never mind the IC things, in fact, my IC actually was larger in this new one. I input the wrong info in one of the cells.

[Kingdom of Reitzmag]

I suggest these for the updates regarding the unit strength/amount for the air fleet:
Fighter, Superiority - 30
Fighter, Multirole - 20
Fighter, Strike -10
Attack - 10
Helicopter, Transport -10
Helicopter, Multi-use - 5
Helicopter, Attack - 5
AWACS/EW/RECON - 1
Tanker - 1
Drone, Attack * - 2
Drone, Recon * - 2
Transport -5
Bomber - 3
Bomber, Heavy - 2
Strategic bomber* - 1
Maintenance/Logistic Unit - 2,500

[Vayinaod]

Unfortunately, the entire system is designed around single purchases for aircraft. Helicopters are different since they are generally cheaper, this could be expanded to drones however. I've seen no issue so far with aircraft numbers in the war sheets I've received so far. Those nations are reflective of a real life nation of a similar size/scale. One of the main issues for years in the war system is air force size.

Aircraft are really really really expensive to even consider purchase in real life. Really we should switch to a system of buying tanks in single purchases, but I do not believe that is necessary at the moment. Back to the matter at hand, I get what you are trying to do, preserve your air force size. Right now most of the major powers in the European Union have air forces having tens of thousands of planes. The US Military itself only has like 13,000 and that is across all branches and including helicopters. China and Russia do not even come close, they have like 3,000ish a piece. Most of this I attribute to Fighters / Fighter-Bombers being so cheap to buy.

For the sack of balance and realism, aircraft outside of helicopters and potentially drones should remain single-use purchases in any war system update.

QUICK EDIT: I should note for everyone, smaller air forces benefit everyone. You're about to do more practical thinking about how to use your aircraft without just throwing dozens of entire squadrons at your enemy.

[Vayinaod]

After a rather thought provoking discussion with @Gallorum , I was inspired to adjust the producer tiers to introduce Omega Tier that would house the US and Russia. There was also other movements of the producers to accommodate the newly adjusted tiers. Alpha Tier was adjusted to a price tag of 17,500 Arms Manufacturing. I believe a one year grandfather period for all current producers not meeting their requirements is more than fair.

I thought about adjusting defense multipliers but for the moment those are fine pending possible a future update (I think the overall effect would honestly be negligible for most people in terms of the total amount of ICs they own).

I also finalized all my thoughts on the producer system, and reached a rather pretty end result for the War Sheet. You can view these and example war sheets covering multiple nations here:

I honestly think its ready to be put to a vote from everyone and there has been more than enough time I think for people to put forward their thoughts. I would like to hear more if people have qualms, but I believe we should vote on it.

War System v5 Changes
War Sheet v5
Nation Tests

[Kingdom of Reitzmag]

My question is what would happen to the old units when this is implemented. If I had 450 planes on the old one, and 94 on the new one...

[Vayinaod]

Only units accounted for on the new system would exist, whether the admins want to consider this a sort of retcon or something is on them. But for war system purposes only things accounted for/supported would be allowed for gameplay purposes.

[Vayinaod]

OKAY I got another update lmao.

Angleter asked me to look into adding a budget feature to the war system...and after some eye twitching and hours of frantic hours in google spreadsheets I figured out a way to convert IC's to a hard military budget.

The equation:
[Total ICs/5]* 10,000,000 = Budget in EUROS

As a part to accommodate this, you are not allowed to spend more than 5% of your EURO GDP on defense without war admin approval. Also Defense Multipliers have now been changed to where you may choose how much of your budget you spend on defense, but the max is 25% without War Admin approval. The multipliers themselves have been changed to accommodate this.

Uhhh at the request of @Duxburian-Union I added to the War Sheet to declare whether you met the requirements for certain units or not to make it clear before you post it that you have all that you need.

You can see all these changes here:
War System v5 Changes
War Sheet v5 VERSION 10
Nation Tests

The Nation Tests use the v9 war sheet but I added the necessary test features of the new Budget System to all of the necessary budget numbers. You Can find it at the way bottom under TEST FEATURE.

Overall I think the numbers are Representative of a real military budget for all nations so far I looked at. It also creates an IC limit that way you don't necessary outspend your economy. This is to help balance it out so that BIG states with a big economy and population don't exhaust their manpower while their IC's just remain fairly untouched.

[Angleter]

First of all I'd like to thank @Vayinaod for his work on this and for being patient with me taking ages to get around to moving this process forward.

I think this system is great. It adds a dose of realism to our war system and makes us think about how we structure our armed forces and how we fight military conflicts. The reality is this works in favour of smaller countries – what this system does more than anything else, especially combined with population rules, is severely limit the ability of larger countries to field massive armed forces that can successfully attack any smaller nation anywhere in the region.

I'm glad that we've found a way for this to dovetail with a budget system as well. That should make us all think about how much we're spending on our militaries – even if it's possible to sustain a military of X size, it might not be desirable to do so – and act accordingly. Most RL countries, especially in Europe, do not put a huge portion of their GDP towards defence because doing so would harm their ability to do all the other things a modern Western government wants to do.

In short, this system will, I think, allow for a lot more realism and much better military and economic RP, and I think we should all support it.

---

I'd like, therefore, to initiate a vote on replacing the current war system with this one. Voting starts now and ends 17.00 GMT on April 15th. One vote per player. 75% threshold for approval.

I vote AYE

[UK and California]

Sure, Aye.