Repeal the Condemnation of the Coup in Icholasen
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There is a comment I unfortunately omitted. I did not discuss the reasoning behind those who believe that interactoin with the UNSR spells doomsday. I believe they think this will cause some sort of collapse or retreat, or perhaps just weakening; but all three of these things are awful. Without a government, or even with a significantly weakened government - I do not say state, for it is very possible that some of those with power in the UNSR might attempt to abolish the state, although not government - the country would fall into gang rule, crime everywhere. Where would the nuclear weapons be? In the hands of gangs or cliques; this would be far more dangerous than the present situation, and furthermore would cause significantly more suffering for the Nicoleizian people. All this because of unfathomable reasons. The fall of the UNSR does not equal the immediate return of the UDI; what it entails is the collapse of order completely, upon which there will certainly be great strife, for all, not just a few, if an attempt is made to restore the UDI. Even then, as I made clear, this in itself is unlikely - the UNSR is a strong state, it is not likely to collapse unless Europe takes draconian action, as some not so long ago supported.
I must ask again - are my esteemed colleagues so disconnected from reality, so psychopathic, so petty, that they would even consider such machinations for solely ideological purposes?
Iras Tilkanas
Councillor for the Republic of Istkalen -
James Mizrachi-Roscoe:It will come as no surprise I support democracy and support legal transfers of power over coups but having said that we have to admit the current approach is benefitting no one. For Europe it faces a potentially destabilised UNSR due to the sanctions, a destabilised nation is a dangerous one. For the people of the UNSR the sanctions are not helping at all and only causing poverty and harm while the leaders are barely impacted at all! Therefore I do support this motion in principle but with some conditions. I would support it on the basis negotiations are held as part of the repeal processs to get new elections that are fair and involve all parties including icholsen ones in the elections there , this would ensure a fair choice for the people of the state. There must be democracy and a healing process but we cannot achieve that through sanctions ,diplomacy and opening up avenues for the UNSR government to trade are needed only if we are strong partners can we hope of convincing them more democracy is the way to go. So you have my support in this motion if as part of the negotiations the parties ousted get to be on a ballot in fresh elections.
James Mizrachi-Roscoe ,Councillour for United Duchies
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The Empire of Inimicus opposes any attempt to legitimise the Nicolezian terrorist regime, and will vote against this repeal.
Nicholas Benfield
Empire of Inimicus -
I am fairly certain that my fellow colleagues are aware on my government's position on the UNSR. They have proven themselves capable to govern in a manner that is acceptable for Ruthund to support their ability to apply for EU membership, if they so wish. Regardless on our opinions concerning the events leading up to the reinstitution of the UNSR, the current EU policy on the incumbent government as it stands now only complicates matters in the North of Europe. We believe a more reconciliatory approach is more appropriate for a peaceful and stable Icholasen. And a peaceful and stable Icholasen is good for Ruthund and the rest of Europe. As a result, I will be supporting the proposal put forth by Councilor Tilkanas in its repeal as a first step towards a policy of reconciliation. I would advice others to take a similar position if they share the same goal of ensuring peace and stability in Northern Europe. I also extend that invitation to Councilor Benefield as I am sure he and his government, ever reasonable, good-willed, and interested in promoting prosperity in other nations, would only come to the same conclusion.
Prince-Councilor Tony Odhinazen
EU Councilor for Ruthund -
Councillor Benfield, what terrorism has the UNSR done, or even sponsored? There have been claims, yes; but no evidnce has been provided for them. Regardless, the UNSR's political leadership does not appear to be terribly eager to engage other states in such a manner. If you are speaking of the UNSR's actions against its own people - well, as I said, there is exceedingly little evidence for widescale repression.
I would also like, if I could, to reference your own state, the Empire of Inimicus, in reference to this issue. Quite some time ago, your own coutnry was little better, and perhaps even worse, than the UNSR on the issue of terrorism, and perhaps even that is an understatement? Had the Empire of Inimicus been denied recognition for so long, been isolated for years on end, do you believe it would have changed? Or would it have remained as it was? The UNSR, while not a terrorist state, is not ideal, I admit that, but we must give them the chance to change; it cannot happen with force.
I will now address Councillor Mizrachi-Roscoe. Multi-party democracy s indeed desirable; but i feel that, in the current climate, it is not realistic. The politicians of the UNSR, as much as they may disagree all seem to desire no return for capitalism, or even a chance for it to return; I don't imagine that they would be terribly amenable to this. Yet even then, multi-party liberal democracy is not a prerequisite for having the ability to be recognized, for not being sanctioned. Inimicus has a multi-party democracy, as I said, but it also has an absolute monarchy - surely that is not entirely democratic, regardless of how enlightened the monarchy in question may be; Nofoaga for a while prohibited opposition parties and attempted to run one-candidate elections, and the EU did not act to deny its government legitimacy; even to this day Czech Slavia, which is...unusual in this regard, remains with recognition. We do not deny states, particularly states which are more democratic than a number of our members, legitimacy solely for not holding to one narrow conception of democracy.
I would also like to bring up the fact that the Union has accepted far worse in the past. The Soviet Union was once a member, and a very important one, although this was a decade ago; we also appeared to have one had a nation literally named "Unfreedomia," whose leader, although I have not confirmed this, won an election with over 100% of a vote. Inimicus was far from even appearing to be democratic when it originally joined - have you ever heard of sarin gas? - there was also a nation whose emperor murdered his cabinet on live television, and while sanctioned they were not expelled; another, existing concurrently, which had an insane leader who won elections with 120% of the vote before putting various foreign nationals, as well as members of the LGBT community, to death; even after that, we had one nation which apprently used torture on its own citizens, sending a Commmission candidate who then proposed to extend this policy to th3 rest of the Union. Red Croatia, a member of this Union to this day, is an absolute monarchy which deports people solely for being overweight. Even countries like Inquista were not so democratic - prior to March of last year, its Archbishop used every trick in the book, short of rigging elections, to prevent the opposition from winning elections; in his earliest days, he went as far as to murder those who stood in his way to power, as well as participating in nefarious plots to assassinate other EU leaders, although of course this latter part was not known until recently. Should we have denied all thse countries recognition and membership in the Union for not being completely democratic as you desire? Were those of the past wrong because they did not conform to ideology? I don't believe so.
Iras Tilkanas
Counillor for the Republic of Istkalen -
I would like to say maybe multi-party democracy isn't necessary but certainly people being able to freely stand for election is even if as independents , that is key and also there should be dialogue on freeing political prisoners. I agree with repealing the condemnation but perhaps we could offer a carrot of sorts as part of a deal, EU funding to the UNSR in return for some key reforms such as allowing people including those in the government before the coup as independents , pardoning of political prisoners or freeing of them. Perhaps with the right carrot and the repeal of this condemnation we could change the situation for the better.
James Mizrachi-Roscoe , Councillour for United Duchies
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So long as it is not a prerequisite for repeal, it is fine.
Iras Tilkanas
Councillor for the Republic of Istkalen -
Before deciding what to say and what to vote on this proposal, I would like to hear Speaker Michel and the Nicoleizian Councillor thoughts on this repeal, but there are two things we must take into account if we are going to repeal this piece of legislation: firstly, we cannot deny the Union of Nicoleizian Socialist Republics is a communist dictatorship where there are no freedoms nor rights. Secondly, that the European Commission has done nothing to solve the problem even if it was a priority for many, which is quite alarming; not to mention that only two countries, Inquista and Spain, have cared enough about Free Icholasen and their needs, and I am not incluiding Reitzmag because we all know what happened with Copala City and how all turned out: the Haaneans ruined everything and destroyed any and all resorts of trust.
Debate begins NOW and will last until 22:47 GMT on December 17th, 2021.
Donald Tusk
Deputy Speaker and Councillor for Spain -
Councillor Tusk, people in the UNSR have a wide variety of choices; they may choose between those who desire more state intervention and perhaps more authoritarianism, those who are for the status-quo, those who desire more liberalization, both political and economic, those who seek the abolition of the state but not perhaps economic organization, and those who desire the abolition of the state and civilization. They have the right to protest; there have been a number of recorded protests, some of which were very large, against policies as diverse as the re-instated ban on dairy, previously lifted in 2016, as well as the country's placing of sanctions on Reitzmag. Politicians within the legislative assembly have repeatedly protested actions of the government; in certain cases they have been able to block them. Again, there are some who even actively struggle to abolish all states, and some even civilization, in the country, who are recognized by the government. The UNSR is not a full democracy; but it is not a communist dictatorship where people have no rights. Where exactly did you get this idea from? I would like to know, given that I have not heard such a thing from anyone else apart from you.
I also do not understand what you are trying to say about Copala City and the Nicoleizians, and I do not see how it has any bearing on this matter.
Iras Tilkanas
Councillor for the Republic of Istkalen -
The Democratic Republic of Czech Slavia fully supports this repeal.
Deputy Speaker Tusk, first of all, let the people of the state decide if that state is democratic, European Council or a single Councillor shouldn't decide in place of the people. Besides the Kingdom of Spain should focus on it's own record of civil rights and political freedoms, which is less than stellar as demonstrated by arresting a number of Catalan politicians, before commenting on the democracy of other states.
Moreover, you are completely wrong, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when you claim that the Commission has done nothing to solve the problem. The previous Commission, which had the same Premier Commissioner, sponsored the talks between the two parties of the Nicoleizian conflict, representatives of those parties have in fact met in Europolis. The previous and current Commissions have done the most out of all Commissions to allow for a peaceful resolution to the conflict, however this resolution would have to be negotiated by the involved parties and that depends strictly on them.
Václav Kohout
Councillor for Czech Slavia -
The Archrepublic is interested in exploring all avenues to ensure a peaceful Icholasen. In the two years since its rise to power the UNSR has for the most part other than a few major events involving Reitzmag, which is by no means an uncommon occurrence in the EU, it has mostly kept to itself. I do not believe its fully fair to qualify it as a dictatorship nor as a democracy, its in a weird state where no perfect term exists except that it is the UNSR. The fact of the matter still resides that it arose to power in a explicitly non-legal manner, and that has to be addressed in some context.
Cllr. Tilkanas is very correct in that our Union is effectively open-source to those who wish to join it for whatever reason, from genocidal dictatorships, to unstable states, to antagonistic hermit kingdoms. It's even still very questionable why some nations join the EU where they're culture clearly goes against the principles of the UDoHR, but to each their own I suppose.
I personally am consulting the Fourth Konsulate back home in Vayinaod about this proposal, but I know I will want to here both from the Fremetians and the currently recognized Nicolezian Government via their councillor. Actually, I will go one step further, I wish to see the practicality of inviting representatives from the UNSR here. There seems to be support from some councilors of making this proposal pass with strings attached and I think the only way that is plausible is via a treaty between the EU and the UNSR.
My final vote on the matter will depend on how the debate flows, and the opinions of our Fremetian brothers and sisters.
Carita Falk
Archrepublic of Vayinaod -
I completely and wholeheartedly support the repeal of this reactionary and oppressive piece of legislation. I commend Comrade Tilkanas for standing in solidarity with the free workers of Icholasen, and for putting this proposal forward. It is time that we all come together in solidarity with the people of Icholasen, and we must finally put the needs of its people over the needs of a shadow cabal of capitalists and royalists. The Condemnation legislation was nothing short of a failed bourgeoisie plot enacted to stop Nicoleizians from freeing themselves from the shackles of exploitation. This plot has failed, and there is no reason to further keep Nicoleizians in isolation for achieving freedom.
Bp. Karinn Lallana
Councillor for Inquista -
I request a debate extension, as I believe there remains much to be said and addressed.
In regards to having representatives of both the UNSR and Free Icholasen, as it is termed, here, I agree with it; but I believe that a more neutral individual, Nicoleizian, of course, should also be present. Both sides will almost certailny be biased in regards to the situation on the island of Icholasen and almost invariably Councillors on both extremes of the issue will use one or the other's arguments to defend their own views, which are in some, perhaps many, cases clouded, jaundiced, really, by ideology.
A suitable figure, as funny as it may sounds, may be Kelis. She was and is an important political and cultural figure; she has participated both in the politics of the United Dominions and the UNSR, and was to an extent a dissident in the latter; she no longer lives in the territory of Icholasen, either. I think there may be some merit in inviting her to present hr own, presumably more neutral, view before this chamber.
Iras Tilkanas
Councillor for the Republic of Istkalen -
GOVERNMENT OF GANIA
The Gania government will vote against this repeal, and will continue with its policy of "Preserving healthy relationships and building a democratic Europe"; to date, Gania has not seen a substantial change towards personal freedoms, of expression and of the press.
Signature: Francisco Bustillo
CHANCELLORA
SIGNED ALSO BY THE COUNCILLOR BY GANIA PEDRO BORDABERRY -
There is no evidence to prove that any freedoms are suppressed to a significant extent in the UNSR. Candidates opposed to the state are allowed to run for political office, and have in fact won political office; a number of significant protests against government policy have occurred. There are a number of EU nations which are accepted as democracies, particularly Nofoaga and Inimicus, which do not possess, at the very least, the same separation of powers as exists in the UNSR - although I do not deny that they are, of course, democracies of their own type. I would not say that it is a full democracy; but it is, to an extent, one, in that the people have choice and a significant level of control over the functioning of the government.
All of these allegations are simply coming from its name, I imagine - people hear "socialist," they hear "communist," and they immediately begin to scream about human rights violations without ever actually looking at the genuine situation. I would not even say that the UNSR is very orthodox in regards to its ideology - significant politicians are opposed to communism, instead beliving in some form of return to primitive tribalism, and this is meant in a completely literal sense - others claim that communism entails, even requires, a free and unfettered market. All of these people form various factions and are in direct competition with each other, and it is not as though the state seeks to oppress them - they are recognized completely, and have won multiple seats in elections, in fact holding important legislative and government positions. I think some will say, "it's all fake, all a show, all these people are just pretending and actually support a totalitarian agenda," but I have not seen any state which has had such elaborate pretentions that its politicians regularly denounce each other, vote against each other, block proposals of the other side. Occam's razor should be applied here as we would anywhere else.
I also do not think it is the place of any member-state to force its own foreign policy on the rest of the EU. This is an issue of pragmatism. Whether any country decides or does not decide to recognize or sanction the UNSR is their own decision; but this EU-level legislation is unneeded and has come to hamper the ability of the Nicoleizian people to be represented on this level.
Iras Tilkanas
Councillor for the Republic of Istkalen -
Before coming to this discussion, I have asked His Majesty's Government on their thoughts so as to allow them to express their opinion regardless of my own opinions on this matter. I'll start with the official statement from the government before I express my thoughts on this.
HM Government
The Black House, Hampton City, Kingdom of Reitzmag
December 14 2021The Government of the Kingdom of Reitzmag sends a warm greeting to all esteemed members of the European Council. It has come to our attention that the European Union's legislative body has begun discussions on another attempt to repeal the Motion that Condemns the Coup in Icholasen. And for this we are thankful for our nation's councilor to give us a voice on the matter.
It is worth noting that we have stood neutrally on the situation in Icholasen following the recent situations involving our nation and both the UNSR and the UDI. Last year, the UNSR had attempted to destroy a large part of our work in astronomy through the Cansey Space Station by detonating an anti-satellite weapon through an ICBM. Meanwhile, extremist refugees from the UDI had caused chaos by terrorizing a world-class settlement project known as Copala City while it was temporary leased for a good cause to the Nicolezian Government-in-exile. Both these events have heavily affected our foreign policy, especially on the situation in the Nicolezian Island.
Due to this, we do not see any reason to support or recognize any of the parties in the conflict. However, we have been more lenient to accept the possibility of the UNSR becoming the true administering state in the Island of Icholasen subject to certain conditions. The following are the conditions we wish to see in order to support the UNSR as the new state in Icholasen:
- Human Rights of all Europeans, especially Nicolezians, are respected and treated fairly. The UDoHR in the Constitution of the European Union must be embodied.
- There must be a legislative body elected to some degree and that Independent candidates may at least be allowed to run regardless of ideology, religion, and gender.
- The nuclear stockpile must be reduced, or eliminated if possible, so as not to pose any further threat of invasion or irresponsible handling of weapons of mass destruction.
This decision to offer a chance to the UNSR to be accepted by the nation as the legitimate state of Icholasen was carefully studied. Primarily it has been caused by our distrust with the UDI following the events that have occurred in both Copala City and Anastasia City. However, we also see the importance of this for the betterment of the region. The conditions we have set are aimed to ensure safety and security for all persons, and will not be aimed at forcing any economic ideology such as capitalism nor communism. And for that, we hope the UNSR accepts these conditions for the peace and prosperity of all of Europe.
Sir Simon Bridges, KCMG
Prime Minister, Kingdom of ReitzmagChung Eui-yong
Minister of the Crown, Ministry of Foreign Affairs
And now for my opinions as Councilor. I do agree with the fact that the European Union has indeed accepted nations regardless of whether it is a dictatorship or a liberal democracy. It is explicitly stated in the Constitution of the European Union under Article I, Section II, Paragraph 1, "All sovereign states are free to join the European Union. No approval is necessary". In addition, I do agree with the government that there should be some conditions met in order for the UNSR to prove themselves capable of being recognized as the legitimate state in the Nicolezian Island. It is important to ensure that our decision here in the European Council is not a mistake that we will regret in the future. And finally, I think we should agree that what the Condemnation Motion had done no good nor any change in the situation. Therefore, I stand in support of repeal as long as the conditions that His Majesty's Government had set are met and proven through an official truthful response from representatives of the UNSR.
Yuridiana Yahontov
Councilor, Kingdom of Reitzmag -
As I have categorically stated, repealing this condemnation does not require recognition or even admission of the UNSR. That should be covered by a separate piece of legislation. All that this would do is open the opportunity for recognition and admission, which will be handled at a later time.
Iras Tilkanas
Councillor for the Republic of Istkalen -
I must say to this council that while I personally share skepticism of the government of the UNSR, what I am seeing from many in this chamber is unfortunately baseless speculation about what is actually happening the UNSR. As Councilor Tilkanas rightly pointed out, there simply isn't any credible evidence from the UNSR of any significant human rights abuses, or other infringements on freedoms that otherwise could be found among nations within the European Union. In fact, if we are to believe reports of what is happening throughout the Union, it would appear the UNSR is a freer society than some of our member states. Shall this be our reason to remain hostile to a regime that has shown no intention thusfar of agression? If that is the case, let it be known in the record that Ruthund will be proposing later other proposals to penalize certain nations for more credible reports of human rights violation and in particular, infringement on political freedom. And if we find ourselves in that situation, I best not hear from members from this Council that we "need to respect the right of self-determination". But I am sure Councilors Tusk, Yahontov, Bordaberry, and Mizrachi-Roscoe will support these future bills.
Prince-Councilor Tony Odhinazen
EU Councilor for Ruthund -
I would like to thank Councillor Tilkanas for her clarifications, which are indeed useful not just for me, but for everyone. Apart from that, my apologies for the misleading statements I might have done about the Union of Nicoleizian Soviet Republics.
As requested, debate will be extended for 72 hours, until 22:47 GMT on December 20th, 2021.
Donald Tusk
Deputy Speaker and Councillor for Spain -
I would like to request a second debate extension.
Iras Tilkanas
Councillor for the Republic of Istkalen
The Kingdom of Spain
